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Armchair Travel with Naturetrek
Armchair Travel with Naturetrek

Episode 4 · 1 year ago

30 Years at the RSPB, with Senior Conservation Officer Dr Tim Melling

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Tour Leader Dr Tim Melling reveals some of the key conservation projects he worked on during his career, including grouse shooting, wind farms, preventing destructive developments and protecting Twite and Ring Ouzel in the Peak District.

Welcome to end of the Nek teck podcast,where we bring wildlife to you in your living room in this episode. Thirtyyears, OT THE RSPB to Lede tomelling talks about his career as a seniorconservation officer and in your host. Sarah Frost, Naty, treck's, marktingmanager, normally based in the head office and chosen, but this podcast isonce again brought to you from lockdown in altern, hello and welcome to another Aurpodcasts, now preventing the illegal persecution of birds, haltingenvironmentally damaging building developments, working with farmers toimprove habitart for wild life and climbing up steep crags in the peakdistrict to protect ringusals, it's saved to say that working is a seniorconservation officer for the RSPB. Isn't your standard office job, butthis is indeed what Tulyde docor Tim melling has dome. With his career, Timhas been a leader of Nita trecors for twenty years, guiding our groups in farfrom corners of the grobe from the Arctic to the Antarctic and a hundredplaces in between. So if any Natur treck travelers are listening, thechances are that you've been an atorl with to him at some point and hesjoining us today from lockdown at his home in the peak district, Hello Tim.How are you welcome? I'm very well. Thank you. Sarah now tim. Can you give us an overview ofyour role at the RSPV? You had a long career there didn't you. I did I startgin the late S, and I worked until May last year, which was over thirteenyears working there, always in the north ofEngland. I've never worked anywhere other on the north of England, myentire life, I started off. Doing Pressen media work there and thenlatteraly moved into more pure consernation work and at' of,as my job was mainly about trying to protect important sites for wil lifeagainst damaging developments, and when I first started, I rememmmber beingtold er well, you concentrate on site that have got protection and I wasthinking well. Why do you need you know sites of got protection? What why doyou need to get involved with those because they're protected outtey andthen, as I learn more about it, I found that even the most highly protectedsites in Britain, you know that, with with European level protection, Britishprotection, none of them are sacrisant all of them. We Luk polls fordevelopments to take place if it's for social and economic reasons, but thetrouble is, is that the developers are always trying to push that as far asthey can get and to make sure that that they get thedevelopment to go ahead, but once a development goes ahead and you'velowered the bar and allowed your damaging thing to take place. That thensets precedent for future developments because people say oh well, you let himbuild his R neuclear power station. I next to thattri bless I, but why can't we do it...

...here and it's difficult to come up withargument not to when one's already been allowed? So that's what I did. I wastrying to stop the most Danagy development and trying to brok or dealsfor wild life, to make sure that it was taken into account with otherdevelopments, to make sure that O it minimized damage to always comfensitBASICA right. So clearly, what many wouldregard as a crucial role and very worthwhile career. Indeed, and Isuppose it might be hard for you to pick one thing. But what was the mainchallenge you faced when trying to accomplish? All of that I mean apartly was the was the government really because,whichever government's in they always see the economy as being much moreimportant than wil life? And if there's any kind of playoff between jobs andbirds, the burns always seem to lose out, andso that that was so every single time. It was an uphill struggle and the mostof the designations were handed out more than twenty years to go, and thegovernment decided that these were actually quite restrictive yeah,because it meant that Ye. It made it difficult for them to do darangingdevelopments in places that have been designated as a tripl Si, and so theyreally weren't keen on designating new ones. But I managed, through Doggy,determination and wworking, with others, to get the West Ni mors Oinlantashiredesignated as a new triplat fi about four four years ago, and what I Dar. What happened was when the Europeanlevel protections were were handed out? They what they concentrated on thesites that had were best for birds, but then just ignored the rest so that theyweren't designating too much. But then, when something called sacs came outspecial areas of conservation, which was areas that were of internationalimportance for the habitats and to the species that were involved. Now thatthe government agencies were rather lazy because they have to do lots ofcon consultations with landowners before they designate their land. Andif the Lang was already designated for birds, it was much easier. Just tadesignate it for is habitats as well and and take that box. And what wefound was that the West Peni Mars in lankashare were far fast superior. Interms of habit at quality than then the South Peni mors, which was aninternationally designated side, and yet the West pet ninmars had nodestignations whatsoever and because it was upis and windy, you know all thewin. Fam Developers wanted to sort of Chok winter bines ontop, where you knowmost of it was pristine, blanket bub with four or five meters of Peten andrare birds like merlins and Dummons, and twite nesting there. So,...

...but anyway, with dogged determination,I managed to get that designated. So now it is protected, and I know thatI've playver a major passing that well Dong, you and you just mentioned windfarms and winter, but inso. I expect they were a huge issue for you duringthat time. Are they were they a big problem for thes? There were a big issue. Fror me scary,yeah. I was because I worked right from the beginnings of winter bins. whene noone did even heard of them right through their Hayday, and most people thought that birds would fly into them,and so that's what most people's general aversion to them with birds was.I meank T mayy people didn't want one in their backyard, sat they used tocontact ourspd and say all the skylarks and all sorts of things you should beobjecting to it. But what they found out was that biand, large birds don'tfly into win turbines in the same way that they don't fly into brick. Wallsor you know, Telegraph, Nig, that's what most peoplethink isn't it most. People Thinis Yeah Swan is going to fly into winterbineand get hit and and yeah, and that's what you sometimes perhaps I rarly andthat's what you only really remember you hear about in the news it is butbut so t at they occasionally they do flyinto wind sturvines, but usually when the weathers really bad like when it'spouring down with rain and birds, can't see so well, oh when it's foggy, butmost of the time they're. Okay with it- and you mentioned swams well, big birdslike swans and a more susceptible to death by winter mines. For a couple ofreasons, one is that they are less maneuverable.So if, in a fuggy situation, a swan was flying and all of a sudden, it noticedwith win terbane blades in front of it, it would have very. It would have greatdifficulty in afoiding it and doing a new turn where it something like aswallow could easily turn. But the other one is that there is actually alot of empty space between the blades, and I always think that if you stoodnext to a winter bak with a bucket full of t cricket bolls and started,throwing your crooket balls through the winterdine blades, you would probablyget through most of the bucket without actually hitting a blade, because itwould be going in the fresh air in between the blades. But if you triedthe same thing with Ha Javein, because the Jablin takes much longer from startto finish to get through the blades and you know one Jabwin and it would beclattering on the blades. So for that same reason, swans are much more likelyto get hit because they're slower flying alonger than that. somethinglike a swallow or a small bird, and also because swones are big. Thet'R.Slow Breeding- and so you can have more of a population in tice, but by andlarge most winter bines are not a problem for collision, but ther are aproblem for displacement. Birds, don't like to breed up esumberds, don't like to BreedD and rest when you've got Greatbi...

...winturbines turning nearby some birds,an more skittish than others, but this so a wintar cand have a sterilizationtaieffect up to about half a mile. So if you start building them on the engeof protected areas, what it can do, it is sterilize an area of Moran for forthe for the Dunlane and the golden clovers, and things like that that itwas designated for so again we were trying to get winfouns moved away toareas where they weren't going to cause a problem with displacement or withcollition as well. I was actually involved with one off Black Pool: ofoldplaplaces. Most people think of black pool is a sort of a cheesy seasideresort, but off blackpo there is an Arigar called Shell flat, which is theshallow showl of sand and out there. We didn't realize at the time becausetheres nobody goes out there, but there were. It was t the most important site inBrit in England, for common scolters. There were about thirtysero commonskilters wintering on Shell flat, and this was one of the areas that thegovernment af license for Ahuge. Ninety Turbine winfarm and Carmon skilters areone of the most hysterical ducks. You know it Doresn't, hardly any goodphotographs of them, because nobody can get ne Tor them even at stee they'realways flying off, went there and so win terbines would scare them, but allthe associated helicopter and boat traffic for met repair, a maintenance would alsosee those bloods. So again we thought that and won because it was that wassuch an important Sienc, O common scarces that wow wel that's fantastic and we heare a lot about problems thatbirds have with win turbines. We also hear a huge amount about a legalpersecution of the particularly birds of prey, and was that an issue in yourarea and something that you worked on quite heavily as well yeah? That was amassive issue. Sarah, it was, but it's so difficult, O to actually convict. I once found a trap that was baitedwith a live pigeon to catch Goth Hawks and again. We never conviction out ofthat and one of my colleagues actually videoed somebody shooting a Hen Harrieron an RSPB reserve that was next to a graom mar and again we didn't get theconviction, because this chat was wearing a Schee mask andhe flatly denied it was him and said it was somebody else dress like him and wecouldn't prove it because there was, he had a ski mask on and he got off ScottFree. So so we had to try and find some other way of demonstrating because theywere in denial that the shooting Praternity said. Oh this, never no, itdoesn't occur. You know how many convictions have you had, but when weknow we can actually video somebody...

...killing it and not going ta conviction,we know and they know how difficult this is. So we approach it another wayin the Pat district, because peregrins and gothaks are hated by getingkeepers,because the grouse theres noty ways about in the grouste pheasants now, butthey have traditional messing areas and what we were finding was that thesebirds of prey were disappearing from the Ptstrit, so we weren't actuallyfinding a small loking gun we weren't finding dead bodies. We were justnoticing that the birds were disappearing. So now the big districthas it's divided into two. We call it the dark peak and white peak. The darkpeak is the people in Theareas with the Grace Mars on it, and the white peak isthe limestone areas now both of these have populations of Gusth, folks andparagrims. But we noticed that the DARTPE population was plummetingdownwards and the white ti population was going upwards at the same time, yetthey were only a few miles apart. So what we did was we and when I say that these birds simplydisappeared. If somebody went along there and shotbirds on a cold February,mid midweek wetday, when nobody else was about and managed to shoot,peregrons and gothogs, they wouldn't occupy that territory. So we looked atthe occupation of territories compared with how the Neonis the proximity to Grove smarsand what we found was that a territory of either a gothhock or aperegrine for both species was only half as likely to be occupied if it wasnear a grose more so so that was the first thing that therewas no logical explanation for rother than persecution, but when a territorydoes become occupied, what we were finding was that the nest wouldsuddenly disappear or that you know the contents wilol the nest would fail, andwe also look to the statistics of that and wit found that, if Utsol for thehalf of the nest that did continue on Grasmars for Gos bog, they were onlythose nests were only half as likely to fly Janny young compared with the onesaway from the grasemors and for paragrims. It was a staggering threetimes more likely there. So that's you know, there's no other lar,logical explanation. You can't blame diseases or you know natural predation.Not when these areas are. You know only five miles. Apash there andso. Also. Welooked at the convictions, sorry that the absolutely convermed evidence of o bird persecution, so a shop bird ofpoison, bird trapbird, where there was a hundred percent, no doubt that thishad been done by humans and we plottin those geographically and then we lookedas a thirogate for growshooting. We looked at the intensity of GrosemoreBurns, because ganekeepers burn mores,...

...fo for grons ther, and we found thatthat the intensity of Garosmor burning and the number of persecutions of thesebirds was absolutely correlated. So basically, the more gracemoremanageement ther was the more persecution intotitu the were and atthe same time we were showing that there were a fewer birds there and theywere having greater poora success on the Gross Mars. Sothat was a you know. A really neat piece of work, Wee Gong to published aswell. It was dim the journal, British birds and- and you know, but thatreally really sured- that you now just the underlying nature of what is goingon here with the illegal persecution of evectually, anything that isdetrimental tograns. It's absolutely astonishing to me what battle this hasbeen for you and and continues to be for other people working in your sexstill today and to give me for asking such an obvious question bt. It's aquestion that so many people, I'm sure will be wanting to know, is why is itso difficult to actually get he persecution? Is it purely because, even when you hear of cases when therseems to be such damning evidence and the people still get offscot free,is it because people clearly just don' don't care enough about the wildlifeand even when they do get persecuted, that the punishment seem to be solimited? And so you know it's just equivelent snap on the wrist. If no it's a it's a really goodquestion in that seter. But just imagine if I was up in the big districtwith my camera and I saw a gamekeeper and I could take his picture and then,if I saw him shooter say a Hen Harrier out there I mean I could probably photograph thedeadhand area. I could photograph the game keeper, but to actually get theshit, the shot of him shooting with an identifiable photograph and that goingdown because first thaugt he could claim that somebody else had shot itand it was already there, but, moreover, he would go over and retrieve it andthat bird would then vanish. So there is no evidence and then he would saywell. I was a bit closer to you. You know it was a crow you're blind. Youdon't know what you're looking at and you know and he's right in the RIS'n acourse in the land that would convicte him. If you haven't got the bodybecause he's got rid of it and that that that is why the gameforshooting industry- don't like satellite transmitters, because whatthese are sshowing is that a satellite transmittor on the back of a ParagramGosorcan area. Will you know it works perfectly well for years and then thebird wanders on to a grosemore and then all of a sudden it just miraculouslystopped working and basically what happens is somebody illegally killsabout o pray, finds it's got a transmitter on and then has to. You know, smash it up and get you knowdamp destroy it, but at that's. It...

...shows where the last transmission was, and if that was on the grausscore andwe're finding that that is time and again what is happening so yeah but h. This is why it is sodifficult, but even that isn't enough to convict somebody, even if all theHen Harriers that have been satellite tags stopped working on the more thereis still not enough evidence there to prosecute a game keeper, because youknow nobody's actually cauhthim. It could be that those tags are juststoppe working. It is it's a real nightmare of a job to get a conviction and Dodo. You think this may bedifficult for you to say, but do you think that, with pressure fromconservation groups, the business of granshooting may be become a thing ofthe pastor at least jus decrease? I think it will. It may get licensingit may be licensed. It may be be even outlord, but I think that things will come notnot just because of the collateral, illigal persecution ofbirds of prey which does go on on grise mors the. Maybe the odd grace more outte ad that isn't, but by and large you know the whole. The whole industry is it's based on on removal of birds ofprey, but the other thing that they do isthey burn the Binn Kit bog and the deep peat up there now farmmes were bannedfrom burning stubles just for air health and pollution reasons many manydecades ago, but for some reason a the gamekeeppers are allowed to carry onburning the Mors, and you know I see this thick pole of pollution on burningdays. It happens time and again and and all that burning and it's completelyunnecessary and it's bad for climate change as well, because what that isdoing is basically releasing all the carbon dioxide that has been taken outof e by the spit of e Mosters. It's you know it's reversing of the climatechange benefits, so you know even for no other reason. They should stopburning the mords, even if they carried on Grac Tuting, but and if they can'tclean up their acts and thes Shur, but no not even moves in that direction.Then you know, I think that the you know tha. The time is up really for drivengroceshooting. Well, let's watch your space, thenperhaps, but tim tell us a bit more about thethe other consurvation Ofer, the bird species that you've worked with. I knowthat you've worked with twiht having you and Wingis Aso TutstTrit, yeah twiht is an interesting. One. Twice isa little dull bramber like a Linnix turiously need of a PR champion. It'smhost people have never heard of it, but it's got a more. It's got that. I thinkthat the most restrictive distribution of any bird in England, so it onlybreeds in a tiny little area, not far...

...from where I am at the moment, in thesouth pen lines and north peak distreit and yeah, there's probably about ahundred pairs left in this area, and it's one of very few birds that seensentirely on on seeds. Most seen eating birds like tafeges and sparrows willturn to an insect guyet when they're feeding their chicks, because they'vgot lots of Protyn but Twi. Doesn't it carries on feeding just on seeds so andit only nes UPAN Morlans, so it needs an abundant supply of seeds next tonext to the Moors, and traditionally this has been hay medals, but two things have been happening. Oneon is Hay. Medals are a real rarity now, as Sylich is taken over, because siligecan get two or three cuts a year off. You see these great big GOOS place,collored plasticbales in the fields, and that means that it's all wrapped uplong before that that the seed is even set so there's just no food available.It's really fact for cuus and skylocks and all other things as well, but theother thing that happens with the is that they're cutting earlier andearlier so quite often when the birds are still feeding their youngsters onthe seeds. The FAM was quickly cut because they don't want the rain tocome and ends up getting bailed and again. There's no food and the babiesare starving that so we've been working with farmers in the areas in thefavoand ar areas where wite still are to ensure that they carry on well Wen,be getting grant that it pays them to carry on managing and traditional areasand also to try and turn a few of these silige medals back into the traditionalair medals, which actually look nicer as well and so much better for wildlife.As I said, it's better of Ha Bumblebees, butterflies, skylarts, cur ewse, lapwings. You know all the birds that, like the upland fridges, it's good forso and you're right. I did work on Ringoos als as well. ringe Olses, adifferent issue, Ringodlis the upland counterbat ofblackbirds and they nest in the peak district. Again not far from where I amnow and they but they're a very shy bird, much moreskitty ton, the blackbird and they like to nest on on Teks and there's onegreat big, long millstone great edge in the peakdistrict and it's several miles long is called stanage edge and it also happensto be the most popular climbing crag. In Britain, people come from all overEngland to come and climb on stanare edge. It's sill famous, you know solong, are's, many of them and when the weather's good and when there's lots ofclimers there, the birds just cannot get a looking. You know there's nowherethat they can get that hasn't, got climbers on, but when the weather's dadthey stay away and then the birds start nesting and then what we can do is wecan put restrictions up to keep climbers away once the wirds of startsignesting, but the climbers one keep off and let the birds next in the firstplace, that was a battle that we never ever wwon. But if the birds can't guesson the CRAGS, which is the nest behind...

Heather Ind Bilbry, actually on theclifs, but if they can't Ness Thar, they tend to nest in the bracken bedbelow the cliffs. Now you think that that would probably be okay, becauseyou know people aren't wandering in there, but the trouble is. Is thereisn't much cover from above and when a bird nests in there the crimers tend tohave picnics and leave food scraps, and that then attracts crows and Jack dorsand then, when they're flying over, they spottering Meseles next thing andgo and predate the next Itto, the the EGY, the chick and so invariablyringgouzels that nest in the bracket beds fail. So what we used to do was weused to find these brackennest and we used to get a big blanket of Brackenmitter and we would put it over the tops of these ringoozles like a roof-and I remember one female was so confiding. She sat so tightly on hernest that she didn't fly off when we put this blanket things over the top ofthe nest so that she had a roof overr. So the cors couldn't see her and an wewalked away and she was still incubating and she went on to raise twomore broods from that that nest that year, I think it was ten chicks intowhan. I was so pleased with that. So that was just one little side, but themain thing was negotiating yeah with the climbers to make sure that theyrestrictions were in place and that they didn't climb. When we had a renewsall that and and talking of climeas thinking about the position that we'rein right now, the country is still in lockdown, we have a Comona virusoutbreak. Do you think this may actually have a positive effect, fomthe breeding populations of ringins or the moments? Considering that there'sgoing to be fewer climares and tourists there? Now it will. Undoubtedly, I remember backin the foot mouthyear where nobody was allowed in the countryside. That waswhen we realized that that stanage edge the number of ring goodls on there morethan doubled in foot moutier, because there was nobody disturbing them, theycould carry on nesthing and that that was the Theatelis that made us realizethat something needed to be done, because you know when we had twentypaiers of Ring Goozles, I think a long stanmage hedge, where normally it'ssort of three or four so but yeah. I do think for ring newsal,that all these clotheshits will have probably done its a world of God, bueno its one positive thing. I wone of the several wild life points of things thatI've been reading about recently, then that could benefit them so just to go back to twight, which hementioned talked about a few minutes ago. Many twihts get colorings and have there been anymajor ringing recoveriies from these birds that you know ofi as because Iremember reading about a bird that showed up in cesix that had been ringedin the North West somewhere yeah. What we said is so this this tinypopulation of twiht that are in the...

...pennins about a hundred pairs. All ofthem go across to the east coast and a winter from about spurn, pint all theway down to Eatanglia and one or two getting round as far as Susex. Butbasically they fly eastwards to the east coast now, twiht also winter onthe lankage cost and it lerally it's much closer than just to drop down tothe reblestery and winter there and there are wintrings wiht there. Butwhat we've found with ringing studies? They play a kind of musical chairs allthe Lancaship birds from the north of Scotland, and they come down here forthe winser and all our birds move across to the east coast, t sort ofyeah, just like musical chairs really and yeah, which I think is absolutelyfascinating. But the other thing that we, that is, that itorically and twihe did not use to mygrade. They used to spend the entire year around the the penines, but whatthe use they used to winter in fallow and and Arabal fields there, butbecause when in the days before tracors people used to have to keep horses tosort of, you know, work the farm and to pull machinery and things. So they thenhad to grow Olt for the horses and we didn't have the you know theTransportin prostructure. So people had to grow food. So there was alwaysourable in the UPLANDS, even though it wasn't very successful, arrabal andthen, but now with mechanization and modernization. Is that the UPLANDS nowspecializes in sheepgrazing and Arabal just does not exist in the UPLANDS. Sothey've got nowhere to spend the winter. So now they have to migrate down to the the Sol marshes on the coast where theyfeed on it's called Saliconia, see light and youal seed like thatgrows on pioneer salt marshes, but they verypickit. They don't like it in delight, iti to be in a sheltered spot, becauseif it's out on the open flat, all the seeds get blowing out and so out overthere and there's nothing to e to feed on something needit in the shelter spotto keep them going throughout the winter and its global warming affecting thebreeding numbers in northern England. It's a difficult one. Almost certainlyit will be doing and we're noticing that things like ring well, Tok twiceis certainly getting rarer in our areas, but it's stilldoing slightly better. In Scotland, things like ringguzals are disappearingfrom the south of England. You know that hanging by a thread in places likeDartmore, I think theyve disappeared from shromshon now so iget things doseem to be retreating northwards and we've noticed that Merlins as well seemto be moving higher up the hill. The lower ones are there but which allsuggest globalwarming. But you know I...

...haven't, got the evidence to sort of apoint that we haven't done the research to say: Oh Yeyes, that's definitely whymerlins are moving and Tim was it just birds that you wereworking with while you were at the Urspb, or did you get involved withprojects that involves of the wirld life as well? I've always got involved with whateverI used to feel was the best thing to fight the development with I actuallyfound the plants were a really good one, because with them with plants andhabitat an therein just say that somebody wanted to build a win farm onthe more it was. If you're arguing plants, you can just say wellel. Thisis blanket bog. This is blanket log, vegetation, you're damaging it by byputting winter bines on it, whereas with the veras they can say. Ah Well, you'veonly got one pair of Golden Plover here it sort of create a little scrape overhere and the golden plovers could move there, and you know it's much easier tonegotiate away. So so I often found that I relied on my knowledge ofbottany. For my battles- and it was, you know, Ifound that I was more successful, arguing with plants, and I was withbirds, but sometimes SAI. I would argue, with whatever was needed. There was onewhen there was a windfarm cable that was coming from oneof the offshore windfounds in the Iris Se and they had to get the cable ashoreand they needed to put it through an entertitle area of mood, flats and then soul, marshes and,and it was difficult to argue against them from a bird point of view, becausethey said that if we do it during the summer, not allthe wintering burs that this is important for Wat, be here. So whatwell do it is well start in there and we'll do it we'll get it all finishedby September, but the Sol mash that they wanted to flow up and dig thiscable through happen to be the only English side, the only extant Englishside for a really rare mothcall, the belted beauty. That was on this tinypiece of Sol Marsh, and we said that no, you can't play Ruruh and relette withthe only site for this muff in England. You got to have to do something else,and they were saying. Well, you know, there's th, there's the substation.This is ther. You know it's got to come through here, so what we made them dowas something called directional drilling for about a mile that, whenunder the Salma, saw that nobody went on the Sol marsh, nobody tramples on itand they could pull this cable through, underneath without actually damagingTho thing on time. So we seem, like a you know, a reasonable way, because Idon't think the mustr would have minded if a cable went underneath their songasBok. They certainly wouldn't have liked to. If theyd have got the digger doubtthe churned up the Sol marsh to very ocaydle there, so yeah that was alittle victory and that was for, but mot was the one that I won, that one on well just listening to your passionateknowledge for the conservation of our wild life, no matter how smallcertainly shines through and of course this is why, alongside the career ofthe RSPB, you've worked as a chorleader...

...for data treck for over twenty years,and I know to has Ron Paus at the moment and what have you got lined upfor next year? I know you affter Rantarxica, I'm terribly jealous, butwhere else can, I guess, join you Asall Right. I've go. I've got a goodyear next year, Sir Atually, because Athink I've hopefully got frandz JosephLand, which is a pioneer trip there, a great trip to canchack the fares ofSiberia, which I've leadt before and, as you say, Ancantica, which coinsideswith the eclipse down there as well. So we're hoping to see the the total solar, eclips whiles, goingseeing all the the penguins and the albatrosses and the iceberg so yeah.Let's just pok her on the virus and disappear and we can get on with ourlives again. Oh well, I'm optimistic about that and yes is a cruise leaderand dissertation fanatic. The certainly destinations that are high on my listas well and Autim. That's been a fascinating insight into a long andimportant career that you've had at the SPB. If people wish to join you ONATO,they can go to your pofol page on our website, the link to which is displayedon the screen now and thank you so much for joining as it's been great to catchup. THAT'S CRIAT! Thank you. Sarah listen to more of our podcast just goto our podcast webpage at WWDT, natue tack, top cod UK Forwardlash podcastthanks for listening.

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