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Armchair Travel with Naturetrek
Armchair Travel with Naturetrek

Episode 4 · 1 year ago

30 Years at the RSPB, with Senior Conservation Officer Dr Tim Melling

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Tour Leader Dr Tim Melling reveals some of the key conservation projects he worked on during his career, including grouse shooting, wind farms, preventing destructive developments and protecting Twite and Ring Ouzel in the Peak District.

Welcome to another Nate Creek podcast,where we bring wildlife to you in your living room. In this episode,thirty years at the RSPB, tour leader to melling talks about his career asa senior conservation officer and I'm your host, Sarah Frost, Nature Tex Marketing Manager, normally based in the head office in Chawton, but this podcast isonce again brought to you from lockdown in Alton. Hello and welcome to anotherof our podcasts. Now preventing the illegal persecution of birds, halting environmentally damagingbuilding developments, working with farmers to improve habitat for wildlife and climbing up steepcrags in the peak district to protect ring ousels. It's safe to say thatworking as a senior conservation officer for the RSPB isn't your standard office job,but this is indeed what tour leader Dr Tim Melling has done with his career. Tim has been a leader of Nature Trectorers for twenty years, guiding ourgroups in far front corners of the group, from the Arctic to the Antarctic anda hundred places in between. So if any nature trek travelers are listening, the chances are that you've been on a tour with Tim at some pointand he's joining us today from lockdown at his home in the peak district.Hello Tim, how are you welcome? I'm very well. Thank you,Sarah. Now, Tim, can you give us an overview of your roleat the RSPB? You had a long career there, didn't you? Idid. I started in the late s and I worked until May last year, which was over thirteen years working there, always in the north of England.I've never worked anywhere over the north of England my entire life. Istarted off doing press and media work there and then latterly moved into more pureconservation work and I suppose my job was mainly about trying to protect important sitesfor wildlife against damaging developments. When I first started I remember being told Oh, while you concentrate on sites that have got protection, and I was thinking, well, why do you need that? You know, if sites have gotprotection, what? Why do you need to get involved with those?Because they're protected, aren't they? And then, as I learn more aboutit, I found that even the most highly protected sites in Britain, youknow that with with European level protection, British protection none of them are sacrosancts. All of them leave loop poles for developments to take place if it's forsocial and economic reasons. But the trouble is is that the developers are alwaystrying to push that as far as they can get and to make sure thatthat they get the development to go ahead. But once a development goes ahead andyou've lowered the bar and allowed a damaging thing to take place, thatthen sets a precedent for future developments because people say, oh well, youlet him build his nuclear power station next...

...to that tripless I, why can'twe do it here? And it's difficult to come up with an argument notto when one's already been allowed. So that's what I did. I wastrying to stop the most damaging development and trying to broker deals for wildlife tomake sure that it was taken into account with other developments, to make surethat it minimize damaged or was compensateated right. So clearly what many would regard asa crucial role and a very worthwhile career indeed. And I suppose itmight be hard for you to pick one thing, but what was the mainchallenge you faced when trying to accomplish all of that. I mean partly wasthe was the government, really, because whichever government's in, they always seethe economy as being much more important than wildlife and if there's any kind ofplayoff between jobs and birds, the birds are always seem to lose out.And so that that that was so every single time. It was an uphillstruggle and the most of the designations were handed out more than twenty years togo and the government decided that these were actually quite restrictive because it meant that, yeah, it made it difficult for them to do damaging developments in placesthat have been designated as a triple Si, and so they really weren't keen ondesignating new ones. But I managed, through dogged determination and were working withothers, to get the West Pennim moorsed in Lancashire designated as a newtriple si about for four years ago. And what idea. What happened waswhen the European level protections were were handed out, they what they concentrated onthe sites that had were best for birds, but then just ignored the rest sothat they weren't designating too much. But then when something called less acscame out special areas of conservation, which was areas that were of international importancefor the habitats and for the species that were involved. Now that the governmentagencies were rather lazy because they have to do lots of concert consultations with landowners before they designate their land. And if the land was already designated forbirds, it was much easier just to designate it for its habitats as welland and take that box. And what we found was that the West PennarMoors in Lancashire were far, far superior in terms of habitat quality than thethan the South Pennaem Moors, which was a an internationally designated site. Andyet the West Penlan was had no designations whatsoever. And because it was uplandand windy, you know, all the wind farm developers wanted to sort ofa chunk wind turbines on top when you know most of it was pristine blanketBob with four or five meters of peat and and rare birds like merlins anddumlins and twice nesting there. So anyway,...

...with dogged determination, I managed toget that designated. So now it is protected and I know that I'veplayed a major pass in that. Well, well done you, and you justmentioned wind farms and wind turbine so I expect they were a huge issuefor you during that time. Where they were they a big problem for birds. There were a big issue from mystery. Yeah, I was, because Iworked right from the beginnings of wind turbines, when nobody did even heardof them, right through their heyday, and most people thought that birds wouldfly into them. And so that's what most people's general version to them withbirds was. I mean many people didn't want one in their backyard. Sothey used to contact our SPD and say, Oh, well, the skylarks andall sorts of things, you should be objecting to it. But whatthey found out was that by and large, birds don't fly into wind turbines inthe same way that they don't fly into brick walls or telegraph that's whatmost people think, isn't it? Pople? Most people think is, yeah,Swan is going to fly into a wind turbine and get here and yeah, that's that's what you sometimes perhaps if you mainly and that's what you onlyreally remember, you hear about in the news. It is, but butso that the occasionally they do fly into wind turbines, but usually when theweather's really bad, light, when it's pouring down with rain and birds can'tsee the well, or when it's foggy. But most of the time they're okaywith it. And you mentioned Swan's. Well, big birds like swans andmore susceptible to death by wind turbines for a couple of reasons. Oneis that they are less maneuverable. So if, in a foggy situation,a swan was flying and all of the sudden that notice with wind turbine bladesin front of it, it would have very it would have great difficulty andavoiding it and doing a u turn, whereas something like a swallow could easilyturn. But the other one is that there is actually a lot of emptyspace between the blades and I always think that if you stood next to awind turbine with a boocket full of the cricket bawls and started throwing your cricketballs through the Wind Turbine Blades, you would probably get through most of thebook it without actually hitting a blade because it would be going in the freshair in between the blades. But if you tried the same thing with thejavelin because the javelin takes much longer from start to finish to get through theblades. You know, one javelin and it would be clattering on the blades. So for that same reason, swans are much more likely to get hitbecause they're slower flying and longer than that something like a swallow or a smallbird, and also because swans are big, they're slow breeding and so you canhave more of a population impact. But by and large most winter bindsare not a problem for collision but they are a problem for displacement. Birdsdon't like to breed up, but some...

...birds don't like to breed and andand rest when you've got great big wind turbines turning nearby. Some birds aremore skittish than others. But this saw a wind farm can have a sterilizationeffect up to about half a mile. So if you start building them onthe edge of protected areas, what it can do is sterilize an area ofmore and for the for the for the Dune Lane and the golden clovers andthings like that that it was designated for. So again we were trying to getwind farms moved away to areas where they weren't going to cause a problemwith displacement or with collision as well. And I was actually involved with oneoff Black Pool, of bold places. Most people think of black pool asa sort of a cheesy seaside resort, but off black pool there is anarea called shell flat which is a shallow shoal of SAM and out there.We didn't realize at the time because there's nobody goes out there, but therewere. It was the most important site in Britain. In England for commonsculpters. There were about thirty thousand common sklters wintering on the shelf lat andthis was one of the areas that the government of license for a huge ninetyturbine wind farm. And common sklters are one of the most hysterical ducks youknow. It doesn't hardly any good photographs of them because nobody can get nearto them. Even that stee they're always flying off. Went there and andso wind turbines would scare them, but all the associated helicopter and boat trafficfor met repair and maintenance would also see off those birds. So again wethought that and won because it was that was such an important site for commonsculters. there. Wow. Well, that's fantastic and and we hear alot about problems that birds have with wind turbines. We also hear a hugeamount about the legal persecution of particularly birds of prey, and was that inissue in your area and something that you worked on quite heavily as well?Yeah, that was a massive issue, Sarah. It was, but it'sso difficult to to actually convict. I once found a trap that was baitedwith a live pigeon to catch gosshawks and again we never got a conviction outof that. And one of my colleagues actually videoed somebody shooting a Hen Harrieron an RSPB reserve that was next to a gross more and a then wedidn't get a conviction because this chat was wearing a ski mask and he flatlydenied it was him and said it was somebody else dressed like him and wecouldn't prove it because there was a he had a ski mask on and hegot off Scott Free. So so we had to try and find some otherway of demonstrating because they were in denial. But the shooting fraternity said, Oh, this never, never, no, doesn't occur. You know how manyconvictions of you had, but when we know that we can actually videosomebody killing it and not get a conviction,...

...we know and they know how difficultthis is. so we approached it another way in the peak district becauseperegrins and Gosshawks are hated by gamekeepers because they grouse. There's no two waysabout it. The grouse the pheasants now, but they have traditional nesting areas andwhat we were finding was that these birds of prey were disappearing from thepeak district. So we weren't actually finding a smoking gun, we weren't findingdead bodies, we were just noticing that the birds were disappearing. So nowthe peak district has its divided into two. We call it the dark peak andthe white peak. The dark peak is the peopland areas was with thegrouse was on it, and the white peak is the limestone areas. Nowboth of these have populations of Goth folks and Peregrins, but we noticed thatthe dark peak population was plummeting downwards and the white peak population was going upwardsat the same time. Yet there were only a few miles apart. Sowhat we did was we, and when I say that these birds simply disappeared. If somebody went along there and shot birds on our cold February, midmidweek, wet to day when nobody else was about, and managed to shootperegrins and Gosshawks, they wouldn't occupy that territory. So we looked at theoccupation of territories compared with how the the nearness of the proximity to grouse Moors, and what we found was that a territory of either a Gosshawk or aperegrine, for both species, was only half as likely to be occupied ifit was near a grouse more so. So that was the first thing thatthere was no logical explanation for other than persecution. But when a territory doesbecome occupied, what we were finding was that the next would suddenly disappear orthat, you know, the contents would all the nest would fail. Andwe also looked at the statistics of that and we found that, if so, for the half of the nest that did continue on grouse was for gospels, they were only those nest were only half as likely to fledge any youngcompared with the ones away from the grouse was and for peregrines. It wasa staggering three times more likely there. So that's, you know, therewas no with a large logical explanation. You can't blame diseases or, youknow, natural predation, not when these areas, you know, only fivemiles apart there. And so also we looked at the convictions, sorry thatthe absolutely converned evidence of bird persecution. So a shot bird, of poisonbird, a trap bird, where there was a hundred percent no doubt thatthis had been done by humans. And we plotted those geographically and then welooked, as a surrogate for grouse shooting, we looked at the intensity of grouseMoore Burns, because gamekeepers burn more's...

...for grous there, and we've foundthat that the intensity of grossmore burning and the number of persecutions of these birdswas absolutely correlated. So basically, the more grows Moore management was, themore persecution incident there were. And at the same time we were showing thatthere are a fewer birds there and they were having greater poor success on thegross mores. So that was a, you know, a really neat pieceof world. We got it published as well. It was in the journalBritish birds and and you know. But that really really showed that just theunderlying nature of what is going on here, with the illegal persecution of ever anythingthat is detrimental to grouse. It's absolutely astonishing to me what a battlethis has been for you and and continues to be for other people working inyour sector and still today. And forgive me for asking such an obvious question, but it's a question that so many people, I'm sure I'll be wantingto know is why is it so difficult to actually get the persecution? Isit purely because even when you hear of cases when there seems to be suchdamning evidence and the people still get off Scot free? Is it because peopleclearly just don't care enough about the wildlife and even when they do get persecuted, the punishment seems to be so limited and so you know it's just equivalentslap on the wrist? If no, it's it's a really good question inthat set. But just imagine if I was up in the big district withmy camera and I saw a gamekeeper and I could take his picture and thenif I saw him shooter, say a Hen Harry or out there. Imean I could probably photograph the Dead Hen Harrier, I could photograph the Gamekeeper, but to actually get the shut the shot of him shooting with an identifiablephotograph and that going down, because I thought he could claim that somebody elsehad shot it and it was already there. But Moreover, he would go overand retrieve it and that bird would then vanish, so there is noevidence, and then he would say, well, I was a bit closerto you. You know it was a crow. You're blind, you don'tknow what you're looking at and you know, and he's right in the reason tocourt in the land. That would convictive if you haven't got the bodybecause he's got rid of it. And that that that is why the gamefor it shooting industry don't like satellite transmitters because what these are showing is thata satellite transmitter on the back of a paragram of Gospelk an area. Willyou know, it works perfectly well for years and then the bird wanders ontoa grouse more and then all of a sudden it just miraculously stopped working.And basically what happens is somebody illegally kills a bird of bray finds it's gota transmitter on and then has to, you know, smash it up andget, you know, damp destroy it. But what that's it shows where thelast transmission was and if that was...

...on a ground more and we're findingthat that is time and again what is happening. So yeah, but thatthis is why it is so difficult. But even that isn't enough to convictsomebody. Even if all the hen harryers that have been satellite tags stopped workingon the more, there is still not enough evidence there to prosecute a gamekeeperbecause, you know, nobody's actually caught him. It could be that thosetags are just stopped working. It is it's a real nightmare of a jobto get a conviction. Why? And do you think this may be difficultfor you to say, but do you think that, with pressure from callservation groups, the business of Garciasing may be become a thing of the past, or at least a decrease? I think it will. It may getlicensing, it may be licensed, it may be be even outlawed, butI think that things will come and not not just because of the collateral illegalpersecution of birds of prey, which does go on on grice mores, thenmaybe the odd gross more out there that isn't got. By and large,you know that the whole that the whole industry is and is based on removalof birds of prey. But the other thing that they do is they burnthe blanket bog and the deep peat up there. Now farmers were banned fromburning stubbles just for air health and pollution reasons many, many decades ago,but for some reason that the gamekeepers are allowed to carry on burning the Moors. And you know, I see this thick poll of pollution on burning days. It happens time and again and and all that burning and it's completely unnecessaryand it's bad for climate change as well, because what that is doing is basicallyreleasing all the carbon dioxide that has been taken out of there by thespike of mosques. It's, you know, it's reversing of the climate change benefits. So you know, even for no other reason, they should stopburning the Moors, even if they carried on grace shooting. But and ifthey can't clean up their act and they shown that no, not even movesin that direction, then you know, I think that the the you knowthat the time is up really fair, driven grace shooting. Well, let'swatch your space then, perhaps. But Tim tell us a bit more aboutthe the other conservation of other bird species that you've worked with. I knowthat you've worked with twight. Have a you and wing use also touch right. Yeah, twit is an interesting one. Twice is a little dull brown birdlike a linnet. Seriously need of a PR champion. It's most peoplehave never heard of it, but it's got a more it's got that.I think that the most restricted distribution of any bird in England. So itonly breeds in a tiny little area not...

...far from where I am at themoment in the south pound lines and north peak district. And Yeah, there'sprobably about a hundred pairs left in this area. And it's one of veryfew birds that feeds entirely on on seeds. Most seed eating birds like shaffages andsparrows will turn to an insect diet when they're feeding their chicks because they'vegot lots of protein. But twy doesn't. It carries on feeding just on seeds. So and the only nests something Moreland. So it needs an abundantsupply of seeds next to next to the Moors and traditionally this has been haymeadows. But two things have been happening. One is Hay meadows are a realrarity now as silage is taken over, because silage can get two or threecuts the air off. You see these great big toothplace colored plastic balesin the fields and that means that it's all wrapped up long before that theseed is even set. So there's just no food available. It's really badfor Col use and skylocks and all other things as well. But the otherthing that happens with that hey is that they're cutting earlier and earlier. Soquite often when the birds are still feeding their youngsters on the seeds, thefarmers quickly cut because they don't want the rain to come and ends up gettingbailed and again there's no food and the babies are starving there. So we'vebeen working with farmers in the areas, in the favored areas where twice stillare to ensure that they carry on. Well, we've been getting grants sothat it pays them to carry on managing in traditional areas and also to tryand turn a few of these silage meadows back into the traditional hair meadows,which actually look nicer as well, and so much feder for wildlife. AsI said, it is better a bumblebees, butterflies, skylarts, curl us,lapwings, in all the birds that like the upland fringes. It's goodfor so and you're right, I did work on Ring Gooseles as well.Ring goosels was a different tissue. Ring Goosele is the up and counterpart ofblack birds and their nest in the peak district, again not far from whereI am now, and they but they're a very shy bird, much moreskittish than black bird, and they're like to nest on peaks. And there'sone great big long millstone grit edge in the peak district and it's several mileslong. It's called standage edge and it's also happens to be the most popularclimbing crag in Britain. People come from all over England to come and climbon stanage edge. It's so famous, you know, so long. There'smany of them and when the weather's good and when there's lots of climbers there, the birds just cannot get a looking you know, there's nowhere that theycan get that hasn't got climbers on. But when the weather's bad they stayaway and then the birds start nesting and then what we can do is wecan put restrictions up to keep climbers away once the birds have started nesting.But the climbers won't keep off and let the birds nest. And the firstplace that was a battle that we never ever one. But if the birdscan't get on the crags, which is the nest behind heather and Bilberry,actually on the cliffs, but if they...

...can't nest there, they tend tonest in the bracken beds below the cliffs. Now you think that that would probablybe okay because you know people aren't wandering in there, but the troubleis is there isn't much cover from above and when a bird nests in there, the climbers tend to have picnics and leave food scraps and that then attractscrows and Jackdoors and then when they're flying over they spot theiring measles and nestingand go and predate the nest. They to the the eggs, they thechicks and so invariably ring Gooseles that nest in the bracken beds fail. Soand what we used to do was used to find these bracken nests and weused to get a big blanket of bracken litter and we would put it overthe tops of these ring goozles like a roof, and I remember one femalewas so confiding. She sat so tightly on her nest that she didn't flyoff when we put this blanket of things over the top of the nest sothat she had a roof over us or of the crows couldn't see her andand we walked away and she was still incubating and she went on to raisetwo more broods from that that nest that, yeah, I think it was tenchicks into I was so pleased with that. So that was just onelittle side. But the main thing was negotiating, yeah, with the climbersto make sure that they restrictions were in place and that they didn't climb whenwe had a ringusle ness and and talking of climbers, thinking about it's theposition that we're in right now and the country is still in lockdown. Wehave a coronavirus outbreak. Do you think this may actually have a positive effectfrom the breeding populations of ringers or at the moments, considering that there's goingto be fewer climbers and tourists there now, it will undoubtedly. I remember backin the footmouth year when nobody was allowed in the countryside. That waswhen we realized that that stand a Jedge. It that the the number of ringgoose ors on there more than doubled in foot mouth here because there wasnobody disturbing them, they could carry on Nesting, and that that was thecat list that made us realize that something needed to be done, because youknow, when we have twenty pairs of Ring Googles, I think along standardhedge, where normally it's sort of three or four. So but yeah,I do think for ring goose all that all these closures will have probably done, it's a world of God brilliant. Was One positive thing, one ofthe several wildlife points of things that I've been reading about recently then that couldbenefit them. So just to go back to Twite, which she mentions talksabout a few minutes ago, many twits gets colorings. And have there beenany major ringing recoveries from these birds that you know of? I as becauseI remember reading about birds that showed up in Sussex that had been ringed inthe northwesternwhere. Yeah, what we found is so this this tiny population oftwite that are in the pennines, about...

...a hundred pairs. All of themgo across to the East Coast and and winter from about spurn point all theway down to East Anglia and one or two getting around as far as Sussex. But basically they fly by eastwards to the East Coast. Now twice alsowinter on the Lancashire Coast and it it's much closer than just to drop downto the rib estuary and winter there and there are wintering twite there. Butwhat we've found with ringing studies it they play a kind of musical chairs allthe Lancashire Birds from the north of Scotland and they come down here for thewinter and all our birds move across to the east coast sort of. Yeah, just like musical chairs really and yeah, which I think is absolutely fascinating.But the other thing that we found is that it is historically twice.Did Not used to my grade. They used to spend the entire year aroundthe pennines. But what they use they used to winter in fallow and andarable fields there. But because when in the days before tractors, people usedto have to keep horses to sort of you know, work the farm andto pull machinery and things. So they then had to grow olds for thehorses and we didn't have the you know, the transport infrastructure, so people hadto grow food. So there was always arable in the UPLANDS, eventhough it wasn't very successful arable and then. But now, with mechanization and modernization, is that the uplands now specializes in sheep grazing and arable just doesnot exist in the UPLANDS. So they've got nowhere to spend the winter toso now they have to migrate down to the the salt marshes on the coastwhere they feed on it's called Salicornia seed Blights, annual see blight that growson pioneer salt marshes. But the very picky they don't like it in thelike. It's to be in a sheltered spot because if it's out on theopen flats, all the seeds get blown out and so out over there andthere's nothing to do to feed on. So the needs in a sheltered spotto keep them going throughout the winter and and it's global warming affecting their breedingnumbers in northern England. It's a difficult one. Almost certainly it will bedoing and we're noticing that things like ring it well, touch twice is certainlygetting rarer in our areas but it's still doing slightly better in Scotland. Thingslike ring goose als are disappearing from the south of England. You know thathanging by a thread in places like Dartmoor. I think they disappeared from Shropshire now. So I guess things do seem to be retreating northwards and we've noticedthat Merlin's as well seem to be moving higher up the hill. The lowerones are there, but which all suggest global warming. But you know,I haven't got the evidence to sort of...

...a point that we haven't done theresearch to say, Oh, yes, that's definitely why merlins are moving andTim was it just birds that you were working with while you're at the RSPD, or did you get involved with projects that involved of the wildlife as well? I've always got involved with whatever I used to feel with the best thingto fight the development with I actually found that plants were a really good onebecause with with the plants and the habitats are there in just say that somebodywanted to build a wind farm on a more it was. If you're arguingplants, you can just say, well, this is blanket bog, this isblanket bog vegetation. You're damaging it by by putting wind turbines on it, whereas with the birds they can say our well, you've only got onepair of Golden Plover here and if we were to sort of create a littlescrape over here, then the golden plovers could move there. And you know, it's much easier to negotiate a way. So so I often found that Irelied on my knowledge of botany for my battles and it was you know, I found that I was more successful arguing with plants and I was withbirds. But sometimes I said I would argue with whatever was needed. Therewas once when there was a wind farm cable that was coming from one ofthe offshore wind founds in the Irish Sea and they had to get the cablea shore and they needed to put it through an intertidal area of mudflats andthen salt marshes and and it was difficult to argue against and from a birdpoint of view, because they said that if we do it during the summer, not all the wintering birds, that this is important for what we here. So what we'll do? It is will start in May or we'll doit we'll get it all finished by September. But the salt marsh that they wantedto plow up and dig this cable through happened to be the only Englishsite, the only extant English side, for a really rare moth called thebelted beauty that was on this tiny piece of salt marsh and we said thatno, you can't play Russian roulette with the only site for this moth inEngland. You're going to have to do something else. And they were saying, well, you know, there's this, there's a substation, this is that, you know it's got to come through here. So what we madethem do was something called directional drilling for about a mile that went under theSalt Myce so that nobody went on the salt marsh, nobody tramples on it, and they could pull this cable through underneath without actually damaging that thing ontop. So we seem like a, you know, a reasonable way,because I don't think the moss would have minded if a cable went underneath theirsalt marsh, but they certainly wouldn't have liked it if they'd have got thediggers doubt and churned up the salt marsh to bury a Kaye there. Soyeah, that was a little victory and that was for moths. Was theone that I won that one on. Well, just listening to your passionateknowledge for the conservation of our wildlife, no matter how small, certainly shinesthrough. And of course this is why, alongside a career at the RSPV,you've worked as a tour leader,...

...if a day check, for overtwenty years and I know to us are on pause at the moment. Whathave you got lined up for next year? I know you're off to Antarctica.I'm terribly jealous, but where else can our guests join you? That'sright, I've got I've got a good year next year, sir, actually, because I think I've hopefully got friends Josef land, which is a pioneertrip. There a great trip to can chat, the Far East of Siberia, which I've laid before. And, as you say, I'm Tarctica,which coincides with the eclipse down there as well, so we're hoping to seethe the total solar eclips whilst going seeing all the the penguins and the albatrossesand the icebergs. So yeah, let's just folke coronavirus disappears and then wecan get on with our lives again. Oh well, I'm optimistic about that. And yes, as a cruise leader and dissertation fanatic, there certainly destinationsthat are high on my list as well. and well, Tim, that's beena fascinating insights into a long and important career that you've had at theRSPB. If people wish to join you on a tour, they can goto your profile page on our website, the link to which is displayed onthe screen now. And thank you so much for joining us. It's beengreat to catch up. That's great. Thank you, Sarah. Listen tomore of our podcast. Just go to our podcast web page at www dotnature trek cool at UK forward slash podcast. Thanks for listening.

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